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People with specific religious dress requirements should conform to the dress codes of the country they live in, however different those dress requirements and cultural codes might be.

What do you think?

This is something I've been asking myself for a long time. Due to immigration, we see Muslim women every day, dressed from head to toes, and now in summer we wonder... Isn't it too hot? Don't they realize it's too hot to dress like that? But I guess they don't, or, if they do, it's not important for them. They were educated that way, they must hide their body regardless of the heat... I think it's so cruel, but at the same time I'm freaked out by the fact that they don't seem to care; they are bound to their countries's sexist rules. They are living in a free society now, where they can dress however they want to, but they just stick to their traditions. Seeing them makes me feel bad for them, because I know why they dress like that, and I don't understand why they don't complain to their husbands or whoever it is that makes them hide their body and suffer from this heat!

On the other hand, I am sure I wouldn't change my European way of dressing if I went to other countries, but I think that's different. I dress the way I want, there's nobody telling me I should hide my body or my face or my hair (and if there was, I wouldn't listen! Who are they to tell me what I should do).

So, I also think that if I wouldn't change my dressing style, we can't ask them to do it, either. Regardless of the difference (we dress the way we want, while they are told how to dress).

I'd like to hear the opinions of other Muslims, please.

Yes, adapt yourself to the local culture ! we have to respect each culture. If we don't, we are killing the diversity of cultures.

!!! I think about real cultures and countries (Quebec, Catalunya...), not about religions !!!

Shokin

I think we have to respect their way to live. If they really want to wear their dresses, they can do that. However in practice not everybody who wears religious dresses really want to wear them. They do that because they are forced to do that by their men and the rules of the religion. Yes, we live in a free world. But not in each country applys these rules.
I self wear the clothes that I want, and nobody would push me to change my clothes. But I live i a really free country. Here are also many muslims, but some of them really want to wear they dresses. And some of them totally not. For example I know some persons who go to school in a religious dress, and in the school toilet they change their dress to short skirt and normal shirt. I think that that is terrible that they are forced to live so who they don't really want. But they have a big family, who will not allow you behave you the way they want, but the way they must according to religion.
How can men change it?

hello, Victoriaa! it's nice to meet you.
Well not so long time ago education among europeans and muslims all together was nonsence, but now it's quite common. I guess it's a question of time and integration, the world globalization isn't just theory - it works!

Hopefully it is. I also think it's important to understand the other cultures. Because we all live together. I am absolutely not against other cultures untill the moment the people are forced to do that.

First, I think there should not be any specific dress codes in any countries. It depends on our own choice. We can dress what we like. If you think it's a bit odd for us to adopt the other dress code, fine! Just follow suit the dress code in our country then. It doesn't matter! The most important consideration, I think, is comfort.

HKdude wrote:First, I think there should not be any specific dress codes in any countries. It depends on our own choice. We can dress what we like. If you think it's a bit odd for us to adopt the other dress code, fine! Just follow suit the dress code in our country then. It doesn't matter! The most important consideration, I think, is comfort.

Totally agree! I just can't understand why there have to be specific dressing patterns in some countries. I think the clothes you wear are (or should be) a personal choice.

some people wear special clothes due to their religion or tradition. maybe they think their dressing pattern is nothing different from others. maybe in their minds, every country and every religion has its own dressing pattern, and what others wear is just showing the pattern of their own. don't you think wear what you like is a dressing pattern?

I think we all follow dressing pattern of the country where we're living. And this pattern is known as fashion. Fashion is the thing that depends on country culture, country religion. I think if you are in the country where the fashion is different from the one of yours, you should to conform to their fashion. But if some aspects of fashion are complitly forbidden by your culture or your religion you should try to find compromise.... may be mix details of your culture and ones of the country where you are living...
And once more...It shouldn't be right to be opposite to the country culture where you are.... Imagine that Papuan from New Guinea arrives to Paris for example....and walks with dhoti...or without it...

shokin wrote:Yes, adapt yourself to the local culture ! we have to respect each culture. If we don't, we are killing the diversity of cultures.

!!! I think about real cultures and countries (Quebec, Catalunya...), not about religions !!!

Shokin

In principle I would adapt as much as possible to the local culture. But not all cultures are equal. Some are better than others. I do not care much about the diversity of cultures. In my view, anything leading to unifying the world under one single culture is in principle a good thing. In fact, there is a name for this: civilization!

Alfabeto wrote: In principle I would adapt as much as possible to the local culture. But not all cultures are equal. Some are better than others. I do not care much about the diversity of cultures. In my view, anything leading to unifying the world under one single culture is in principle a good thing. In fact, there is a name for this: civilization!

So, to you civilization means to lose ALL cultures (languages, history, customs, and all nations) and favor and keep just one? OMD.

By the way,

Alfabeto wrote:But not all cultures are equal. Some are better than others.

Could you explain this? How is a culture better than another one?

I do think there are some cultures that are better than others. For example, I would die before I live in a culture that has people stone others for their adultery. Lucky me, I was born and raised in "better" cultures.

LennyeTran wrote:I do think there are some cultures that are better than others. For example, I would die before I live in a culture that has people stone others for their adultery. Lucky me, I was born and raised in "better" cultures.

I know, Len, and I agree. But I think he meant a very different thing. Just wanted to hear an explanation ;)

:? Hmmmm... maybe what I interpret that person's post is different than yours. I kinda understand what that person meant. I probably am wrong. :P

I guess dressing is among our dailly life, it's a part of our education so when you ask why do they wear something that covers their body from top to toe? It's just beacause they are used to doing that. They are just trying to keep their authenticity/tradition by their way of clothing.

Where ever we go I think we should respect the country's dress code where you live in. That doesn't mean to leave your traditional clothes because you can still wear them when you are home. Once you go to work for example you change your clothes.

So, to you civilization means to lose ALL cultures (languages, history, customs, and all nations) and favor and keep just one? OMD.

The word "Civilization" is derived from the Latin word for "city". The current idea of civilization dates from 18th-century France, when it was used to designate the highest degree in the development of a culture. Its opposite is barbarism, the condition of pre-statal societies. Those pre-statal societies are often absorbed into a civilization. In fact, the idea of civilization implies the merging together of several cultures, either primitive or historical, into a common tradition. It also implies a tendency for civilizations to extend globally. This means that for any given moment in history there is tipically only one civilization. The Greco-Latin civilization is the only one which exists nowadays and the only one which is effectively extending worldwide. That does not mean that all cultures encompassed by it must immediately perish, only that there is a clear hierarchy. Eventually, we can expect cultural differences within a civilization to become less important and perhaps even disappear into a single culture. If and when that happens most of the reasons for waging war will have disappeared from earth.

Could you explain this? How is a culture better than another one?

It means I don't believe in cultural relativism (for many reasons I won't go into at the moment). A culture that accepts female genital mutilation is to me clearly inferior to one that doesn't accept it, just like one which assigns women a secondary status is inferior to one which recognizes equality of the sexes. Those would be the most obvious examples. Also, a culture which institutionally divides people into closed groups according to race, language or religion could be very advanced in many ways, but it would always be inferior to a similar one which does not.

actually if all of you really understand islam,you will know that muslims women dressed from head to toes not because of their traditions but it is one of the rules in islamic religion.but the style that they are dressing is of course refer to their cultures and traditions.I know sometimes people may wonder if they are hot or not (when dressed from head to toes).but for me,if you really have your true spirits of islam, to dressed like that is a normal thing.the rules of islam is beautiful.maybe somepeople say that it is somekind of cruel to let them dressed from head to toes.actually its not.

(In many ways, covering the body protects it from the heat of direct sunlight. Notice that the traditional dress in many desert climates consists of loose, flowing robes. In loose clothing, the air around the body flows freely and cools more readily. And when people have been wearing this type of clothing for many years, the body get used to it.
On extremely hot days, we might be uncomfortable as is everyone else. During those times, we find comfort knowing that we are following what we believe to be God's guidance for us.)adapted from http://islam.about.com.

I must say that if you really understand islam,you will know how beautiful islam is....

No people should have right to decide what kind of clothes they wear.......But the problem is most of people in those countries feel good wearing their traditional clothes and are proud of their cultural codes.... I think....
So it is meaningless for US to discuss whether they should obey or not.....Only people there decide.......

muslem women aren't forced to cover their heads and bodies... but Islam considers women such as diamonds..If you have diamonds, you would be covered and placed in a box for fear of theft or the threat of it is precious and valuable .. you Will notes that rape and harassment of women in very rare because of the veil ..also sesters cover their heads and bodies ..Is this is contrary to the culture of your clothes?

areej wrote:muslem women aren't forced to cover their heads and bodies... but Islam considers women such as diamonds..If you have diamonds, you would be covered and placed in a box for fear of theft or the threat of it is precious and valuable .. you Will notes that rape and harassment of women in very rare because of the veil ..also sesters cover their heads and bodies ..Is this is contrary to the culture of your clothes?

That's what you tell them and make them believe. I just can't understand how they can buy that.

dixie i'm girl and i'm wearing aveil without any force from dady , my brothers or societal...
i wore my aviel becase i respect my religion.
Every religion has it's orders and every body must respect his religion's orders.
right or not???

It's ok that you respect your religion, but does your religion respect you?

Religious rules I'm okay with:
"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (refrain from using drugs or alcohol)"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"Do not murder"
"Do not commit adultery."
"Do not steal."
"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"Do not covet your neighbor's house"

The rest are just bunch of nonsense to me.

i said every religion has it's rules so every body must follow them..if we don't so why are we living ..because our life without rules will departs..
and i respect my religion because my religion respect me when it let me veil on men (except for my brothers , my uncles , my children , my husband , the children my brothers and sisters and all women)
so as not to become like the crossbar only men looking to enjoy the view of my body.
and islam has all rules that respect the human , all other religions and the life .


(forgive me if i can't speak english well)

Dixie wrote:...they must hide their body regardless of the heat...

My friend, life is choices. Whatever the choices, if the person is okay with their choices why we have to mind with that. Some women or girls choose to wear dress which covers their whole body. It's their choice. It's their basic human right. I don't think we have to be extremly curious on that, like asking a question : don't they feel hot or something ?
Hot or not hot it's none of our business. As long as they enjoy wearing it,just fine.

Dixie wrote:I think it's so cruel, ...

My friend, it would be cruel when we force them to dress like we want them to do.

Dixie wrote:...they just stick to their traditions.

My dear friend, we have to differentiate between traditions and religious teachings. To them, they are committing their religious teachings. I think we should appreciate it. They are trying to do their best to serve God. Just let them free committ what they believe.

Dixie wrote:Seeing them makes me feel bad for them.

Honey, why do you have to feel bad while they don't. What a pity you are my honey friend !!!

Dixie wrote:I wouldn't change my European way of dressing if I went to other countries.

That's your basic human right my dear. Just go ahead. Wear whatever you want to as long as it doesn't break the rules of the countries where you are staying in.

Dixie wrote:I dress the way I want, there's nobody telling me I should hide my body or my face or my hair (and if there was, I wouldn't listen! Who are they to tell me what I should do)..

Bingo. Again, that's the point. Just be yourself my friend. Dress the way you are !!!

Dixie wrote:So, I also think that if I wouldn't change my dressing style, we can't ask them to do it, either.

You yourself say that honey. you're totally right !!!

My last point is :
1. Do not force anybody to wear certain dresses.
2. Do not force anybody not to wear certain dressess.[/size]

HKdude wrote:First, I think there should not be any specific dress codes in any countries. It depends on our own choice. We can dress what we like.

Dixie wrote:Totally agree! I just can't understand why there have to be specific dressing patterns in some countries. I think the clothes you wear are (or should be) a personal choice.

You hit the nail my friends. You got it. It's a matter of choice. If a group of people has specific dresseing codes that's their right to do that. We can't force them not to do it.

A specific dress ???
If they enjoy it, why not !!!

If a country has some certain dressing codes, then the basic principle is the same. Just fine !!!

LennyeTran wrote:I do think there are some cultures that are better than others. For example, I would die before I live in a culture that has people stone others for their adultery. Lucky me, I was born and raised in "better" cultures.

Dixie wrote:I know, Len, and I agree. But I think he meant a very different thing. Just wanted to hear an explanation ;)

Better culture ???
Doing adultry freely is a better culture?
What actually are you trying to say ?

LennyeTran wrote:Religious rules I'm okay with:
"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (refrain from using drugs or alcohol)"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"Do not murder"
"Do not commit adultery."
"Do not steal."
"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"Do not covet your neighbor's house"

The rest are just bunch of nonsense to me.

Nonsense ???
nonsense ???
The rest are just bunch of nonsense to you ?
Really?

Do you think that studying and working hard are in that category?
Do you think that helping others is in that category?
Do you think that being honest in that category?
Do you think that being responsible is in that category?
Do you think that not being hypocrite is in that category?
You name it !!

What actually are trying to say honey ???

TalkingPoint wrote:People with specific religious dress requirements should conform to the dress codes of the country they live in, however different those dress requirements and cultural codes might be.

What do you think?

If the country we are talking about claims that it is free. It believe and respects the individual human rights. Then its people and laws SHOULD BE CIVILIZED ENOUGH(???) to support the MODERATE APPROCAH of acceptance and respect the "People with specific religious dress requirements"!!!!!
For Example : BY PERSONAL CHOICE Muslim women head scarfs or Sikh Turban. Or Modest Dress code for Muslims which says, for man or women, you CAN WEAR ANY DRESS(FASHIONABLE,REGIONAL,CULTURAL) that shouldn't be very tight, sexually revealing and provoking, including legs, cleavage, buttocks etc.

Dixie wrote:This is something I've been asking myself for a long time. Due to immigration, we see Muslim women every day, dressed from head to toes, and now in summer we wonder... Isn't it too hot? Don't they realize it's too hot to dress like that? But I guess they don't, or, if they do, it's not important for them. They were educated that way, they must hide their body regardless of the heat... I think it's so cruel, but at the same time I'm freaked out by the fact that they don't seem to care; they are bound to their countries's sexist rules. They are living in a free society now, where they can dress however they want to, but they just stick to their traditions. Seeing them makes me feel bad for them, because I know why they dress like that, and I don't understand why they don't complain to their husbands or whoever it is that makes them hide their body and suffer from this heat!On the other hand, I am sure I wouldn't change my European way of dressing if I went to other countries, but I think that's different. I dress the way I want, there's nobody telling me I should hide my body or my face or my hair (and if there was, I wouldn't listen! Who are they to tell me what I should do).

So, I also think that if I wouldn't change my dressing style, we can't ask them to do it, either. Regardless of the difference (we dress the way we want, while they are told how to dress).

I'd like to hear the opinions of other Muslims, please.

If the country we are talking about claims that it is free. It believe and respects the individual human rights. Then its people and laws SHOULD BE CIVILIZED ENOUGH(?) to support the MODERATE APPROCAH of acceptance and respect the "People with specific religious dress requirements"!!!!!
For Example : BY PERSONAL CHOICE Muslim women head scarfs or Sikh Turban. Or Modest Dress code for Muslims which says for man or women, you CAN WEAR ANY DRESS(FASHIONABLE,REGIONAL,CULTURAL) that shouldn't be very tight, sexually revealing and provoking, including legs, cleavage, buttocks etc.

bambang wrote:

LennyeTran wrote:Religious rules I'm okay with:
"To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (refrain from using drugs or alcohol)"
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"Do not murder"
"Do not commit adultery."
"Do not steal."
"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"Do not covet your neighbor's house"

The rest are just bunch of nonsense to me.

Nonsense ???
nonsense ???
The rest are just bunch of nonsense to you ?
Really?

Do you think that studying and working hard are in that category?
Do you think that helping others is in that category?
Do you think that being honest in that category?
Do you think that being responsible is in that category?
Do you think that not being hypocrite is in that category?
You name it !!

What actually are trying to say honey ???

Sorry I just want to comment on this...

What LennyeTran tried to point out here are RELIGIOUS RULES which are different from what Bambang was trying to express. Bambang opined more on acts of man/how to be humane, however I know there are more...nevertheless, misunderstandings usually occur when the difference in religion gets in the way... There's no point of debate here, I supposed. Let's just respect each other's opinion...

To begin with, here , I wish to recall one of the most famous phrases: 'WHEN YOU'RE IN ROME BE A ROMAN'. No one has got any right to dictate terms to any country particularly if you breach the rule of that country by defying and wearing your own pattern of dress which is not permissable in that country or it is not accepted in that society.Will a lady be permited to have sun bath in her bikini or swim suit in the beaches of Gulf ?The lady can not protest here.Similarly if a muslim lady is objected to wear a veil or a scarf around her neck in an European country she can not protest either.The best solution for this issue is do not go to a country where you can not be the way you want be. Stay back in your own country or still better stay back in your own house. You can be as you wish. Do not show your ignorance by protesting what is not right in that country.
SNAZZY , BANGALORE, INDIA

We should be able to wear whatever makes us happy